Season 3, Episode 3: Making Peace with Food When It Feels Like the Enemy
Welcome back to The Gut Show! This episode is one that I am really excited to share with you because we have an expert that is one of my dear friends and colleagues, Dylan Murphy.
Dylan Murphy is a dietician and founder of Free Method Nutrition, a virtual nutrition practice that exists to empower women to break up with diet culture by teaching them how to trust, respect and feel safe in their bodies. Dylan and her team of other dietitians, equip women with the knowledge and the tools to gain clarity in their food choices and confidence in their bodies through nutrition counseling in one to one and small group settings.
Dylan is a friend of mine that I really respect and in this conversation, we are breaking down on how to actually make peace with food, what that really means and what that can look like, even in the presence of digestive disorders and conditions like IBS, IBD, SIBO or whatever it is that brought you to this channel! So enjoy our conversation, and then connect with us after to let us know what you think and any questions that you may have.
Don’t forget to connect to others in The GUT Community, a Facebook group for those with IBS and digestive disorders to support one another and dive deeper into each episode together.
Today’s episode is sponsored by Seed. Their signature product, the DS-01™ Daily Synbiotic, is a combination of science-backed probiotic strains and prebiotics that work in synergy to promote healthy digestion, ease of bloating, glowing skin, and more. You can learn more about Seed and the Daily Synbiotic at www.seed.com. Use my code erinjudge15 for 15% off your first month's supply.
Erin Judge: Dylan, I'm so excited to have you on the show! Thank you for being here!
Dylan Murphy: Hey, Erin, yes, I'm so excited to be here!
Erin Judge: So before we get in and just get started and all of that, I'd love to hear a little bit more of your story, or at least share it with our audience. I know, I've known you for a while now, but where are you from, what got you into the work you do now and how have things progressed into where you're at today?
Dylan Murphy: It's funny, I was thinking about this before we got on this call and I was like, I feel like Erin can even answer this question for me, we've done so much of life together in the past I don't even know how many years since our internship. But yeah, a little bit about me, so I am a registered dietitian as well, Erin and I did our internship together, so I guess that's how we originally connected!
I went into the field of nutrition, I always knew I wanted to start my own practice, I didn't know like what I necessarily wanted to specialize in and so that kind of came over time, but I think for me really getting into what I do now and really specializing in disordered eating and eating disorders came a little bit from just my own experience with food growing up and kind of having more like disordered patterns at times of just kind of viewing food very much black and white, good and bad, all or nothing. Just seeing the lack of fulfillment that that brought me and how all consuming that was, but also looking at our education as dietitians and seeing, okay, well, a lot of what I learned kind of aligned with those disordered patterns. So if me, as a dietitian, had those behaviors and beliefs, those things, what does you know, the average person who doesn't have a background in nutrition believe?
And so that really, I would say is what kind of like spearheaded me into that niche of disordered eating and eating disorders. And then, really, the more like, clients I saw in that niche, the more I was like, this is the work I want to be doing, this is such a like, missing link, there's so many people struggling with this. And from there, it just kind of expanded and I definitely love the work that I do for sure!
Erin Judge: That's awesome. Yeah, Dylan and I have known each other for so long, we started our practices around the same time and it's been really fun to watch what you've done grow into some of the things that you kind of have spearheaded and have been a leader in, and I know that that's been really rewarding. I think when it comes down to eating disorders and disordered eating, there's a lot of confusion around what that actually means. I think sometimes we think, you know, eating disorders, like that's the spectrum alone, and that disordered eating just has to fit into that. So I'd love for you to break down maybe a little bit of the difference between an eating disorder and disordered eating and how you would actually explain or maybe define disordered eating?
Dylan Murphy: Yeah, that's a great question because I do see a lot of confusion around that where people think like, okay, well, if I don't have a diagnosed eating disorder, then what I'm doing must be fine, like, it must not be that big of a deal. And really, the way I describe it is I feel like disordered eating, honestly, is a lot of like, what diets are, like when we're restricting foods, when we're limiting the time that we eat, when we're counting our calories, when we're modifying the way we eat, and really, I'll add the caveat there, like, in a way, that's not necessary, because we both know, there's times where I mean, especially with clients you work with, there's times where you do need to avoid certain foods, or maybe you know, not eat an hour before bed, because it'll impact your digestion. There are times where medically necessary, changes are appropriate, so that's not at all what we're talking about when I say like dieting and cutting out foods, this is more for, basically for because you feel like you need to change your body, because you feel like a certain food is bad, and other foods are good. So that would all fall under the realm of just disordered eating. And even you may hear me throughout this interview, talk about like, an unhealthy relationship with food, and that would kind of be the same thing.
And then what can happen is that can become even more obsessive, where then it really consumes your thoughts, you maybe find yourself saying no to dinner with friends, which you usually enjoy, or you're really changing the way you eat, and even it can go into exercise as well, and hose are times where it can really start to drift towards an eating disorder. And so I would say with that, it's like when disordered eating continues for a certain period of time or gets taken to an even bigger extreme and there's not necessarily like a perfect like, segue of like, well if you diet for this long, then it's automatically it'll become an eating disorder. Like that's not the case it just kind of differs person to person and genetics can also play a role and your environment and mental health and trauma and there's so many other things that can play a role in the decisions we make around food. But it's easy to start, you know, a random diet at the beginning of the new year because you think it's, quote unquote, healthy, but then when you think about disordered eating, and how it can easily turn into an eating disorder, a diet that you innocently started, can so often turn in to so much worse.
Erin Judge: Yeah, that's a good way to break it down. I think, you know, you mentioned that as dietitians, like, we're trained in furthering disordered eating sometimes in a lot of what we do, and I know that, you know, personally, even though I have the training in this, sometimes even hearing people talk about disordered eating, because there's this huge movement, right, of going against diet culture, and you're part of that, which is awesome. Sometimes I think hearing, you know, oh, this is something that's a problem, this is a problem, it can be easy to hear that and think like, oh, these things are bad and I must be bad for doing them. I think it's easy to fall down that rabbit hole, especially when you're kind of just navigating online by yourself. Can you speak on a little bit of that piece, of how these are things that we're likely trained in and like, is it someone's fault that they're eating disordered? Is it something that's necessarily bad and there's that spectrum that they should never ever be on? Or, you know, kind of hit on that a bit, because I think that'll be helpful.
Dylan Murphy: I love that you brought that up, because it's easy to see, you know, accounts like mine, and people talking about like, diets are the worst, and don't do this, and don't do that. And, yes, that's true, but when we're saying things like that, like diets don't work, or, you know, any things that are against that culture, it's not saying like, you know, I'm anti someone who diets or anti someone who is, like, engaging in diet behaviors, it's more so educating on like, what you're doing is ultimately not going to work because of what we see in the research, because of what we just see from time and time again, clients, and just people, you know, going on diets, and they work, and then they don't, and that sort of thing. So it's more to like, bring awareness around like, if we look at the marketing around popular diets, it's so displayed in the way of like, this works, this is gonna solve everything, you should do this.
And so one of my goals is to help just bring clarity to people out there to see like, okay, I get that these diets seem appealing, they seem like they're going to work, but let's talk about like, what they don't tell you, and how they really don't work in the long run. They may work short time, like, there's a lot of diets that in the short time of the short term, like, you know, three weeks, three months even, you may see quote, unquote, results, it may work for your lifestyle, but then it reaches a point, and this is where it can easily, that intersection between disordered eating and an eating disorder where it can become so much more obsessive, or it becomes like, okay, well, I'm eating, you know, X amount of calories, what if I ate, like, 200 less calories today, and then continue down that or what if I cut out this food as well?
And even on that topic of like, is this bad/is this good, like, another thing I see a lot of times is people thinking like, okay, so I don't support these fad diets and like someone intentionally just trying to lose weight, does that mean that I am anti, you know, vegetables and anti working out and salads and all that? No, of course not, because being trained as a dietitian, we know that there are so many health benefits to fruits and vegetables, and lean meats, and you know, all that sort of stuff. But it's the like, motivation behind those choices that I want to help people shift of like, I'm choosing the salad because I know it nourishes my body, it makes me feel good. But I also have lots of flavors present, there's carbs, fat, and protein, there's everything my body needs, instead of like, oh, I have to eat the salad because I went on vacation and now I need to make up for what I ate on vacation. Like, there's a way you can approach a meal like a salad from a mindful, you know, intuitive eating perspective and there's a way you can approach it from more of like a disordered eating perspective.
Erin Judge: Yeah, that's really helpful to think about, like, the mindset and the why, and, you know, it's a very thin line, as we all know, it’s so thin and I always like to tell my clients too, so we kind of get into this and we'll talk a bit a bit more about that, as we do see that with IBS and digestive disorders, where there's so much fear around food, but this fine line, it's like sometimes you're gonna cross over it a bit. And I think remembering that we're taught a lot of these things from a disordered point of view is helpful because it's like, it's not that you are wrong or like you're bad or something terrible happened that in your life, you went down this disordered path that you can never get out of, and you should be ashamed of it. You know? It's like, okay, you were, we were conditioned to be this way. Like we're conditioned by marketing, by education, by generational, like, information that's passed down. And it's changing, hopefully, the education, changing the marketing, changing all of that in the future, and then for those who did grow up, like all of us did in that world, like it's trying to navigate where that line is, is that is that line up with what you are saying?
Dylan Murphy: Yeah, absolutely.
Erin Judge: Which makes a lot of these kind of rules, if you will, or like the disordered patterns, the norm, like, they seem like they're the norm, it's normal to restrict food, it's normal to go on those cycles of, you know, I went on vacation, I need to eat less, I'm going out tonight, I need to eat less. And you know, those different rules are so second nature, because they're part of our world in our culture.
So what's the way out? Like, how do we actually cross over the line, and what does that really look like? I know you mentioned the mindset shift being a big part of it, but what are some other ways just to think of it as like more of a tangible way of crossing the line to a healthier perspective and a healthier relationship with food?
Dylan Murphy: I think the first place to start and kind of what we've talked about a little bit here is identifying for yourself the areas that you are struggling in. So first identify like, what is it for me that maybe is disordered when it comes to my eating, or just not the most health promoting? Do I have a lot of food rules? Am I following these diets? Am I spending too much time on social media and seeing what people are doing there and changing my diet accordingly?
From there, you're able to see, like, here's what I need to work on. A question I love to ask my clients is asking them what does a healthy relationship with food look like to you? Because it's gonna look different for everyone, there's not a one size fits all. What a healthy relationship for food looks like for me, maybe different for you, and for someone else listening. So seeing what that looks like for you and getting really like specific there, like, what kind of foods you have for breakfast? Do I like to cook? Would I cook more home? Would I eat out more with friends? Like, what would that look like?
That can help kind of paint a picture of us what that finish line could look like for you because I see it often where you talked about like, people feeling like, am I bad for being on these diets? Am I stuck? Is there any way out? So it can be hard for people to even envision like, what is a healthy relationship with food gonna look like? This is all I've ever known is dieting, and my mom dieted and my grandma, and it's all I've ever known. So what does it even look like? So kind of getting curious and imagining what that could look like. And even with that, it's getting clear on like, your values, like what is important to you? I think a lot of people listening probably would say they value their health, but it might be redefining what health actually means to you. Like, do you think that health means like, well, I weigh a certain amount, I exercise this many times, I only eat these types of foods. So kind of redefining your definition of health maybe or just getting super clear on your values.
And then I think from there, because I know those are kind of more like big picture things of like, okay, what do I want my relationship with food to look like? What does a healthy relationship with food look like? What are my values? Where am I struggling? But then I think from there, that can give you the guidance to see like, okay, based on all of that, what is the first step I can take? Because it's a lot, like it's not one of those things where you identify like, okay, I probably have a disordered relationship with food, I need to change that, a then tomorrow, everything's changed. Like it definitely is, like, one foot in front of the other, one day at a time kind of process. And so breaking it down of like, what is one thing I can do today to move me closer to what I want my relationship with food to look like? And so even some examples of that, that I may work with clients on would be like, maybe I need to detox my social media. Maybe I need to look through, unfollow these diet accounts, unfollow people who are promoting things that I know I need to move away from, or maybe I need to get really consistent with eating breakfast, maybe I need to, you know, go to the grocery store more often or like, reach out to a dietitian or work with a therapist, like seeing for yourself, like what could be that first step and then kind of asking yourself that every day, every week, like what do I need to do this week? What do I need to do tomorrow to help get me to where I want to be? And I think that can help that make it seem not quite as daunting of like, okay, I'm at point A, and all of a sudden I need to be at point Z. It's like we want to take these baby steps to get to this life you want to build.
Erin Judge: That's so helpful! And I think that helps the perspective of, you know, the mindset piece that we always talk about. It's like going from the full mindset of disordered patterns and like that disordered point of view to a healthy relationship point of view, like, that takes a lot of time and it's not something that we can turn on and off unfortunately, it's something we have to unlearn and relearn and play with and experiment with and see what works and what doesn't work and, you know, have that awareness. There's a lot to it, and so that was a good way of putting that into perspective. And, you know, whenever it comes to digestive disorders, so in our world of working with clients who have IBS and digestive issues, there's such a fine line in all of this and I wanted to say a quick word on eating disorders, because that's not really our major focus today and, you know, eating disorders, and IBS can go hand in hand, like there's a very big complexity there, and we do have a podcast coming later in the season on that for you guys, so stay tuned and we'll specifically hit on the overlap of eating disorders and IBS.
But when it comes to disordered eating, when I ask my clients that or we start to evaluate their relationship with food, the biggest thing that comes up is sphere, their sphere of food and a lot of disordered patterns. And some of them, you know, may have come first, a lot of them come later, and they come after, you know, they've dealt with issues with their digestion, they've been told that certain foods probably caused it so now they have a fear because of that, or they've experienced it, where they know that food causes this symptom, so now, I'd never want to eat that food again, and I'm so afraid of it, or I have no idea what's causing it so any food I eat I'm afraid of.
One thing that we work on is the understanding of certain foods and building the digestion up and all of that, but the food fear is something that can be such a block once it's present, and is something that has to be dealt with, we've seen it in our practice, where the food fear can take over and halt all progress with healthy behaviors and building up the diet to actually improve the digestion in the balance of the microbiome. So what are some ways that people who are dealing with that fear and the food fear can start making peace with foods as they figure out what may be going on in their gut? So just kind of what does it look like to make peace with foods, and what does that actually mean? So just kind of break breaking that down a little bit?
Dylan Murphy: So I think first, even with talking about like, what does it mean to make peace with food? I know, those are, you know, even like we had mentioned earlier with like a healthy relationship with food, those can be phrases that we kind of throw around and just seems like normal vocabulary, because it's something I talk about all the time. But for some people listening, it may be like, what does that even mean to make peace with food? And really, it's getting to a point where food doesn't impact your your whole day, where you're able, if you think about peace and like harmony and calm and like just what that word peace means to you, that's the experience we want you to have when you're eating or before a meal, after meal, where food doesn't completely disrupt your day.
I know when it comes to people with digestive disorders like IBS, there are certain foods that you may have deep rooted fears around because of how your body's responded to it in the past, like physically what it's caused or what has happened to your body and your digestion and so that can be really hard, of you no one knowing like, okay, yeah, I've had this food before and it didn't sit well with me and now I have this fear. Like what if that's gonna happen again? And then if I you know, I have trouble with that food, then every other food in that food family, am I gonna have trouble with too and so it kind of leads to this like waterfall effect of fear around so many different foods. And so really with that, I think I mean, even one like, yes, working with a dietitian, like a digestive disorder dietitian that can really help can be huge to like, just have someone come alongside you.
But even besides that, like, what you can do yourself is experimenting with this food, so trying them and because sometimes, and you may see this Erin with like your clients, like I think sometimes just the anxiety around the food can cause a physiological reaction that maybe isn't necessarily the food itself, it’s the anxiety that I have around that food. And then it's easy for me to think like, oh, well, anytime I eat bread, like my stomach is so upset, it must be because of the bread. And maybe it is, but also maybe it's the anxiety that you're having around the bread, or what we see a lot with our clients too, maybe it's because you've been restricting that food and now we're just reintroducing it, so your body's kind of having to learn how to digest it again. And it's a hard kind of place to be because I never want to discount if someone actually does have a true intolerance to a food item, but we also want to see, is that really what's going on or is it not?
I think even kind of like a tangent off of that, like a side note I love to make off of that too is knowing if there are foods that you can't eat, because you know, your body doesn't tolerate it, like, it doesn't mean that that food is bad. It doesn't mean like, let's say, dairy is so bad, my body doesn't tolerate it so I bet nobody's tolerating it, dairy is bad, I shouldn't have it. It doesn't mean that at all, it's just okay, my body is not able to break it down properly, so I'm not going to consume dairy, or maybe I'm just going to have it in super, super moderation, because it doesn't respond well to me.
But then you know, even off of that, like how people can start to make peace with food, and even kind of decipher, like, what is causing this. I keep bringing up the like, mindfulness and mindset, but it really does play such a huge piece of seeing what your meal experience looks like. So going into a meal, am I already kind of anxious and stressed about how is my body going to respond to this? Like, I don't know, I'm really nervous, I'm really anxious, and then do I feel that way throughout the meal? And if so, how can you create kind of this calm before that? Do I need to do some deep breathing? Do I need to spend some time outside? What can I do to ground myself before going into the meal? A question I love to encourage my clients with is even asking yourself like, so you may have the fear like, what if something bad happens? What if I eat this and it makes me constipated? It makes me throw up, it makes something bad happen? Pushing back to that of like, what if it doesn't happen? What if I eat this and it's fine and I enjoy it and I can move on? Because also we we don't know until we know, like we don't know until you try it and see how your body responds to it.
Erin Judge: I love that you brought that up, and you're so right, there can be anxiety induced symptoms that may not be the food, it might be the anxiety, we like to call this a nocebo effect. So I think sometimes those with digestive issues, they may hear that and think like, oh, it's all in my head, which they were told so often, it's like, absolutely not, there's a physiological process that can happen with that anxiety. And the nocebo effect is the opposite of placebo. Placebo is if you take like something and you think it's going to work, sometimes it does, and just that power of your belief in what's going to happen and how your body responds is very strong, and we see that in research and it's an interesting phenomenon.
We also see nocebo, and that's where you believe something bad is going to happen and that happens. So we see that with digestion, where, oh, this is going to be bad, or this is going to cause symptoms. And I see this a lot at the start when you don't know what's causing your symptoms, or you don't know maybe the different characteristics of foods and your gut and how it's working and why things may interact the way they do. It's easy to have that expectation that things are going to be terrible, and that's backed out by your history, that's backed up by all the experiences that your body is reminded you that every time you eat this happens, every time you eat that happens. And so of course you expect that, and then it can happen simply from that expectation and how your body's like leading up to it. And then we know that if you're stressed, stress shuts down digestion, because that's not the organ that takes priority and so you're not even going to digest your food well from the stress!
So I like that you mentioned that, and something I always like to tell clients is that, you know, food fear, like reducing food fear doesn't mean you have to eat the foods, like it doesn't mean that you have to eat lactose if you're lactose intolerant. It means that you get to make the choice and the fear isn't making the choice. So you can decide like, hey, I know this about this food, or I know this about my body, I know this about the state that I'm in and maybe like when you're traveling, your diet might shift slightly because your gut is changing a little bit or when you're on your period, or maybe when you did have a lot of alcohol the night before your gut feels different.
But making the choice out of a place of I know and I'm confident in this, it's not a I'm not making the choice because I'm afraid or I'm not making the choice because of a rule and that's not powering that choice. The choice comes from my own intuition, my own knowledge of my body, my own knowledge of what my gut is doing, and that might be one where maybe I don't have a lactose heavy breakfast the day after I had a few drinks, right? But then the next day, maybe I do because my guts in a different place.
I think that's something to think about for those who are dealing with digestive issues, it's like reducing the food fear will come from understanding what's going on in your gut, you know, figuring out like, what the deal is with certain foods, which comes down to really knowledge of what's going on with these foods, why do they interact the way they do, but that mindset work has to also be done. It might not get you to 100%, because you do need that knowledge piece if there is certain reactions happening, but it is still so important, because it's going to help kind of keep you going and it's also not going to work against you while you're doing the knowledge piece of it. So it's such an intertwined thing and I think a lot of people miss that food fear work. Doctors aren't going to talk about it, because they're not trained in that for sure, and not all dietitians are going to talk about it, unfortunately, and you know, family members are definitely not going to talk about it most of the time. And so it's something to think about, it's like it's one part of it all that needs to kind of go into the picture.
One thing that you hit on was the language around food and like neutralizing food, I'd love to hear you expand on that because that's something that we use with our clients is, you know, apples aren't bad. Apples are higher in specific FODMAP and apples cause bloating for me, or lactose isn't bad, I don't have lactase to break down the lactose, so lactose causes symptoms for me, you know, it's like really breaking it down, neutralizing it, where it's like, it's not moral. And so I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit as I think that goes right in hand with food fear.
Dylan Murphy: And that's typically what we talk about in the sense of like, taking the morality out of food, because when we're labeling a food as good or as bad, it's giving it morality. So if you think about having something that feels good, it's going to make you feel like, okay, I did something good today, I'm proud of myself, and then I ate something bad, I've done something wrong, which then usually it's like, now I need to do something to fix that to make up for that. And then I see it with when it comes to like, actual true, like digestive issues with food, thinking like, okay, well, apples are bad because I can't tolerate them, or, you know, bread is bad, gluten is bad. And it has nothing to do with you know, the morality of it, it's just learning for yourself, like my body, like you just described, like apples make me bloated, so I'm not really going to eat apples that much, because I don't really like feeling bloated.
I think the difference in why it's important to have that shift towards a more neutral frame point is, let's say you're at, like breakfast with friends and the menu is kind of limited and there's only options on there were using apples, for example or let's say using gluten, for example. There's not an option on the menu that is gluten free, and you know, for you personally like, okay, gluten does definitely irritate my stomach, like I noticed that it does, but it's not like a life or death type thing, I can have gluten every now and then it's just, it doesn't sit well for me. The reason we want to shift it to more of a neutral point is so you could be at that breakfast with your friends and still be able to eat the gluten, still be able to order something that sounds good knowing like, okay, my stomach might not feel great today and like, yeah, that's not super comfortable. I probably, if there wasn't a gluten free option, I would choose it, but since I don't have that choice, I can choose something maybe still that is going to have as minimal gluten as possible, but I can eat it and know that I'm not bad for eating it. I think that's where that shift in, like, looking at it as neutral can free you up. And then I know even using that example, like some people have intolerances that don't really warrant that kind of flexibility. like there may be a true like, you know, I can't really afford to do that or like that would really irritate my stomach, I don't want to do that. So, you know, there's some people that I'm not necessarily speaking to with that example, but depending on, you know, the severity of your response to that food.
Erin Judge: Absolutely, and you're right, there's some knowledge piece that comes into there, like you may not have the flexibility. And I think something to break it down to is one side of it, with digestion specifically is that if you don't address the food fear and the language around food, when your gut actually improves, and you're able to tolerate more foods, you're going to run into a really sticky situation. And I tell my clients this all the time, and I always try to warn them of hey, I'm just telling you like, this is where we're gonna get to because we know that with IBS specifically, you know, some conditions you're right, celiac disease, you're never going to be able to eat gluten, you should never eat gluten, certain allergies, like if you have a true allergy to a food you will likely not unless it's something else, you know, there's other things that can go on but you will likely not be able to eat certain foods, and that would be lifelong and that's part of the thing.
But for those who are dealing with IBS or even like SIBO or gut issues and your guts in a state of, you know, increased intestinal permeability, which is we call that leakiness effect, so your intestinal barrier and wall isn't strong. If your gut microbiome is really off balance, and you have that dysbiosis issue and like, we need to build up your gut microbiome, if you're motility is really off with the movement of your gut and, you know, we're working on resolving your motility. As we improve those things, digestion improves, and you will likely be able to eat foods that you may not have been eating before and FODMAPs are a great example where we eliminate FODMAPs, we challenge them, and we bring them back into your diet. And so if you have this language around these foods being bad, or having this moral value to them, or now you've developed, I think one thing we didn't hit on is, what's the impact of food fear. And, you know, like, you kind of mentioned it, where you're like, we'll have to make up for it, I think there's a lot of like self punishment, there's a lot of self blame and guilt and I see a lot like, I call it self sabotage, but it's almost like, almost to the level of self harm a bit, where it's like, the next day, like, I'm just gonna beat myself up, or, oh, well, I'm already bad for eating this gluten at this restaurant, so I might as well just eat, you know, lots of gluten all day long.
Then your guts in a much worse place than it would have been if you just ate the gluten at the brunch and just had like, a smaller amount of it. And then you're just kind of beating yourself up and like digging yourself into like a hole that's really dark and isolated and really hard to get out of. And, you know, whenever we get into bringing foods back, if you have this morality tied to that food, it is so hard to approach that food with expectation of a positive outcome, so like challenging it and to see what's going to happen, neutrality to actually have a chance, right, like we mentioned before, like avoiding that nocebo effect. And then if the food is okay, how are you going to bring it back into your diet, right? Because you're going to struggle, and we see clients do it all the time and it's really eye opening, and it's like, okay, yeah, it's tied to that relationship, that mindset of apples are bad, apples are bad, apples are bad. But then you challenge apples, and you're fine with apples, and now apples are free game. It's like, well, now what do I do with that, because apples are bad, but now I can have apples.
One thing that we do, and I want to hear some of your examples, because I think it's fun to hear, like, how to combat that, because that's one of those things that we mentioned is like so deeply rooted, and labeling foods good and bad is something that is just so innate, and become, I don't know if it's actually innate, but to learn, like, we're taught good foods, bad foods, avoid, eat, don't do this, do this. And you know, all of those kind of black and white, it's this or that, it's hot, and it's easy to learn, but it's not the case, that's not neutral. And so one thing that we do is, I always say like, you know, whenever you get in trouble in like elementary school and you have to like write, like, I will not throw chalk, I will not throw chalk like a hundred times, something that I encourage people to do is think about it that way of like, let's just write it down as many times as you need to, to start changing it. So like apples are not bad, apples are high FODMAP.
I don't know if it actually works, but it's been helpful! Do you have any of those like tricks or anything that you've learned with your clients on actually changing that language to the point where it is actually your mindset versus this thing that you have to keep, like repeating or come back to? Or, you know, how do you get to that point in your practice?
Dylan Murphy: Yeah, and really, I mean, even what you said with like, writing it out, that can be so helpful, I think even on that note, like how even said that sentence of like apples are not bad, apples are high FODMAP, like basically learning more about why your body might not be tolerating it, or why that food fear exists in the first place, or just learning more about the food overall, like when it comes to digestive disorders, like learning, like with the apple example of like, this is not bad, just from what I've learned, it's high in FODMAPs. That particular FODMAP my body is struggling to process right now, so that's why I'm having trouble with it.
Or, like, what we may use with our clients is you know, if they're having trouble with carbs and have a lot of fear around carbs, educating them on why carbs are important, what they do for our bodies, why we need them, so then when you have that, like education behind it, it kind of helps push back to that fear of like, oh, well, this is why my body doesn't really tolerate it right now. And even again, with a lot of the work you do around digestion and cutting certain foods out but then adding them back in is like affirming yourself, like really sitting in the thought of like, okay, my body can't tolerate this right now, but that doesn't mean it can't tolerate it forever. I probably don't need to eat apples right now, but there will be a day where I can reintroduce apples and have them a part of my normal day.
And even with just food fears and working to make peace with food and kind of what are some other steps to do, another thing that we do with our clients is just writing all those foods out because I think it can also get overwhelming of like, gosh, well, what foods can I have? What foods are going to irritate my stomach? Which foods do I have fear around to just like, get all of that onto paper and write it out. Because you may, I mean, with digestive disorders I wonder too, if sometimes it's like, okay, why fear around these foods that I know my body's had negative responses to but then that's also morphed into some fears, some food fears that are just because of the food itself. Like just now I'm afraid of all carbs, because my body can't tolerate gluten, I'm worried all carbs are bad. So writing out all these different items and kind of getting curious of like, okay, where did this fear originate? Is it because I've had an adverse response to it? Or is it because of diet culture, is because of a diet I've tried in the past? Like, what is the root of this fear, and then from there, how can I start to challenge it.
One thing I want to note too, even going back to like, figuring out what's going on with your gut, adding back in foods, all of that, working through food fears, is again with this, like I said earlier, like knowing it's okay to start one food at a time, like you don't, you know, let's say you write out this list, and there's 20 foods on there, that you fear for a variety of different reasons. That doesn't mean that next week, we need to introduce all 20 foods, because that would be super stressful, and probably not great for your gut for other reasons, snd so just picking one.
What we do with our clients is we call it like a food fear hierarchy where we'll have them write like, okay, what food feels the most fearful, maybe that's not the one we're going to try next week, what food feels like, okay, yes, this is a fear food, I do have fear around this, but it's not as bad as the one that I ranked 10. So maybe I'll try this first, and then I'll start to add others back in, and then we'll see from there. And I know sometimes with digestive issues and FODMAPs, like you might not be able to pick it as like, just pick it based on that because there's more science that goes to it, but seeing like, within your control, can I maybe start small? What's one that feels scary, but not as scary, and then ease my way back in, knowing that I don't have to challenge them all at once. I think that can bring people a lot of peace in the journey.
Erin Judge: Absolutely, and we do that even with our FODMAP challenges, something we always say is, if it feels so scary that you're holding off, that's a good sign for us. If you're like, I don't know, maybe I'll wait till then, oh, I don't want to do today, I'll wait, that's usually a sign of like, okay, you're probably really afraid of what's gonna happen, and that's okay, it's normal to feel that way. And so what we always say start the smallest possible amount that feels doable. And for like garlic and onion, because those tend to be some of the scariest for those who are dealing with IBS, so do pitch, do like a dash of garlic powder. Yes, you're not really doing the challenge at that point yet, but you're building up your confidence to do it.
The same is true with fiber, we see clients who are so afraid of fiber and carbs, and one thing that we say is okay, one gram, you know, it's like do a little bit, do like a tiny bit of rice, or you're afraid of beans, okay, great, do like a teaspoon, just do a small amount that makes it feel doable, because then you're also combating that nocebo effect and I think it also takes some of that pressure away. Something that's good to remember is that you don't have to put all this pressure on yourself to like, okay, I'm gonna have to overcome this fear right now and eat this thing. It's like, no, you can slowly work into it, and like you mentioned, get curious about it, explore it and be okay with the the journey. I think that's something that's really good, like that opening up to that journey of okay, this may work, it may not work. What happens if it does? What happens if it doesn't like how do I, you know, care for myself in either situation? What can I do that's going to make me feel good to take a step. And that could be a big step, it could be the smallest possible step, but both people are still moving forward and they still get to the same place, just maybe on a different timeline. Or maybe not, because I see some people are so afraid of food, and they start that work, and they start building it up, and it tends to ramp up fast where it's like, oh, my confidence is building like, oh, I'm good, I can do this. Sometimes it doesn't work that way, because your gut doesn't respond well, so there are some layers for sure.
That kind of goes into like when to get support. So I think what you know, we're talking about like, yeah, you want to learn, there's not a ton of like great resources out there that aren't diet culture or that disordered point of view in perspective. Like if you took just a nutrition course, it's actually not going to be great every time, like it's very hard to filter that. And you know, we were biased towards dieticians, so we obviously will say like a dietician will help you go through that and will guide you through that, which I think is very true. But when would someone seek out support? So if they were doing, let's say that hierarchy of food fear or kind of just thinking about answering some of those questions that you mentioned, at what point would you say that someone would absolutely need support? And what does that really look like? What does it look like to seek out that kind of support?
Dylan Murphy: That's a great question because I think it's very easy to think that you can do it on your own, that you don't need help, or that you can just Google, look on Instagram like that, you can just figure it out. And you know, that's not to discount someone's ability to figure it out on their own, but a lot of times, we do need to bring someone else in, even if it's just for the accountability piece and someone to like, help encourage you along the way. And maybe someone that's like a complete third party that isn't in your personal life that doesn't know the ins and outs, that's just there to help support you. It's really never too early, because even going back to what we talked about the very beginning of how things can easily slip into disordered eating and then slip into an eating disorder. We want to try and catch things on that early in, where I see it with a lot of our clients where they may have some sort of digestive disorder and that's what then sparked the disordered eating that led to the eating disorder. So it can start with something like, you know, IBS, or any sort of digestive disorder.
So I would say things to look for in yourself, like, if you're finding, we've been talking about food fear, if you're finding that fear to be just like, really all consuming, where it just impacts your thoughts, you think about it day in and day out, you really are having trouble reintroducing certain foods, you're finding that you're saying no to things that you enjoy because you're afraid like, well, what's gonna be on the menu, am I gonna be able to eat something, if it just seems to be very overpowering and impacting your own confidence and in your social life and your mental health, I would say that's definitely a time to reach out for support. And even like before, because even what I was describing was like several things happening at once, I would say even if you start to notice one of those things, like if you start to notice, I'm kind of hesitant about going out with friends because of what's gonna be on the menu, or I find myself skipping meals, because it's easier than worrying about how my body's gonna respond to food.
Even if you notice one of those things like reaching out for support. And, you know, that may look like a dietician, like you just mentioned, like, it may look like reaching out to a dietician, maybe it's reaching out to a therapist, because you realize it's more like your confidence and mental health and you need support there, maybe it's both, maybe it's, you know, even starting smaller with ways that don't like, cost anything, maybe it's like finding accounts on social media that are reputable, you know, whether it's a dietician, or a therapist, or a doctor, or someone that actually has training in that area. Because I also think on social media, everyone seems to be an expert on things, so finding someone that's like, truly an expert in that area can be a great place to start, because I know some people financially may not be at a place of like, oh, let me just give this a try, I'll hire this coach, will work one on one, that may not be the first route for everyone. So maybe it's, you know, starting with social media or podcasts like this. Books, like starting something like that, and then seeing, you know, asking yourself, like, Is this enough for me? Is this working or do I need more support?
And what's great, I know, Erin and I both have this in our businesses is a lot of practitioners now have group coaching, as well as one on one coaching, so you can really find what works best for you, whether it's financially you need something that's a lower cost option, or maybe you want you know, we see a lot I'm sure you see this with your group as well, it can be so comforting to find other people that deal with the same thing that you do, because it brings up that feeling of like, okay, I'm not alone, other people have these fears and these struggles, I'm not some odd person out who's struggling with this. So those would be a few things of like, you know, social media, podcast, reading books, and then also looking into hiring a dietician, going to a therapist, finding someone that you can bring into your personal journey so you can get actual individualized support.
Erin Judge: I agree with all of that, and I love that idea of if someone is on social media, then you know, it's great to learn from them. Check them out. I always say this, you know, if people are thinking about working with me, it's like, make sure that you align a little bit with me, like listen to what I'm saying and if you don't align like that's not a good fit for either of us, it's not going to serve you well. The same is true for other practitioners like just because something maybe looks sexy from the outside or looks hot or looks right, take bit of time to really hear what they're saying, read their website, read their blogs, kind of see what their language is like themselves to kind of make sure that that aligns with what you're wanting.
Something I haven't really thought about before, but you may have intent on this too, when you're looking for new providers, you could also ask them point blank of like, how do you address food fear? How do you address these food rules? How do you address disordered eating patterns? No one's ever asked me that, but I think that could be a good way of navigating like, is this therapist actually going to get me to the place I want to be? Or is this dietician going to get me to the place I want to be? Is this doctor you know, like, your doctor's recommendations matter, and so even asking them like, well, how do you, you know, and I can get into, I know, we've got another podcast coming about advocating for yourself and we've got all that coming, but it's good to ask because it's gonna inform the recommendations that they make. If your goal is to think about things from a healthy relationship with food perspective and a healthy relationship with health perspective, then asking someone how do you address this is a good point, because I think that can help you make sure that if you are going through your insurance, or if you are paying money, and you're spending your time on somebody, you know, that it's going to actually get you to where you want to be, and it's not going to maybe take you down more of a disordered path because it is so ingrained in a lot of what we know, and with coaches and things, you know, you just don't know from the outside all the time.
Dylan Murphy: Yes, and I think it's easy, I see this a lot just in the area that I work in, it's easy for people to put up this like a front in a sense where like, you think that they work with disordered eating and you know, help fight diet culture, but then you get into the program, and it's like, wait, now they're putting me on like a calorie diet, what is happening? So I love that, I think those can be great questions to ask so that you're kind of digging beneath the surface to see like, okay, is this person really true to what they say? Is what they have on their website, what they're having on Instagram one, does it align with me? That's great. And like, are they really going to help me? Are they going to give me what I need?
Erin Judge: Absolutely. I think that exercise, you talked about the start of just kind of exploring that of like, where are there maybe disorder patterns present or where do things just not feel good, or like, not aligned with what I think I really want, that can give you I think insight into things that you don't want. And if it's, you know, even we do food logs, and sometimes that's not what someone needs, and we may or may not be a fit for that reason, and that's okay. So even if someone I think needs like, a healthy relationship with food criteria, if you will, there could still be components to things that don't align because of your specific goals, and so that can be a helpful place to start. And then learning and kind of getting some awareness on yourself can help you navigate okay, where do I want to look? Or what is important? And what kind of person you know, do I want to fill that role.
As someone might be looking for someone to work with or in those first steps that you mentioned, are there any kind of specific resources? You mentioned social media, so maybe finding people on social media, podcasts, blogs, things like that. Are there any other ones that can help kind of cut out some of that disordered eating noise and sort of start supporting this whole journey of food freedom, food peace, healthy relationship with food?
Dylan Murphy: So yea, social media is absolutely something I recommend. And, you know, I know social media can be good and bad, so finding accounts that really do promote food peace, making peace with your body, food freedom, like walking away from diets…..Social media is a great place, I think podcasts also can be great, and a lot of times from social media, you find these different accounts that you connect with, and then you find out oh, she has podcasts, I'm going to listen to that too. But that can be a good way to just learn even more about like, what this looks like, what a healthy relationship with food can look like for you, learning more about, you know, walking away from diets, having more intuitive relationship with food.
And then I think from that, like, if you find like what we talked about it a minute ago, like, as you're learning more and more of this, I think in knowing yourself and having just awareness of yourself, you may reach this point to have like, okay, I kind of want to take this a step further, like I kind of want to get support for this, whether it's in you know, a group setting or maybe this person has a membership I can join or maybe I need to work with them one on one and I think knowing like, that can be a great path in your journey as well. And also you don't have to like, you asked about when to seek support, knowing like, you don't have to be at like, you know, the last straw to reach out, like maybe you're listening to someone and you feel like you really connect with them and you hear about this program they have and you like, maybe feel like, okay, my relationship with food is like, definitely could do some work, but it's not horrible. It doesn't mean you can't join a program if it feels like a good fit for you.
So yeah, I think those can be great resources if you're looking to invest financially in something. But also like podcasts and social media can be great for, you know, free resources. Even you know, there's some Facebook groups out there that can be great, where you're able to have that kind of community feel and ask questions and get support. Those can all be great places as well.
Erin Judge: That's awesome. And if someone's listening, and they want to connect with you, or even work with your team, where can they do that? So what does that look like and what is the process?
Dylan Murphy: One one way they can connect with me is on Instagram @dylanmurphy.rd, and they can DM me there, ask me any questions. We have a few different program offerings at my business Free Method Nutrition. We work with clients one on one and in a group setting, our group program enrolls usually three to four times a year. So depending on when you're listening to this podcast, we may or may not be enrolling, but definitely reach out. And we work with people, I know we talked about at the beginning, like disordered eating and eating disorders and the difference between the two, nd we work with people really on the whole spectrum. So whether you're just struggling with your relationship with food and want to have more competence in your body and feel more clarity around your food choices or you feel like you have been diagnosed with an eating disorder, you feel like you might have an eating disorder, no matter where you feel like you fall, we can absolutely work with you. We have dieticians on our team who would love to support you. And so you know, you can reach out, for instance, through Instagram for that, or head to freemethodnutrition.com/freecall and that's where you can schedule a free call with our team to chat more about our offers
Erin Judge: Awesome! And then you also have a podcast.
Dylan Murphy: Yes, I also have a podcast, Food Freedom podcast. We have a lot of conversations like this, talking about making peace with food and bringing on different experts, Erin’s been on there, bringing different experts on just to talk about, you know, how do we walk away from diets and walk into a life that really feels more aligned with your values?
Erin Judge: Awesome, awesome. And I'll put all of that in the show notes if anyone is interested or missed those names and links and all of that, just go to the show notes and you can connect with Dylan and her team at Free Method Nutrition a little bit more. Thank you so much, Dylan, I'm so happy that you came on! I appreciate you sharing your time and your expertise. Anything else you want to say before we shut it down for the day?
Dylan Murphy: I think we covered a lot. Yeah, like I feel like I could say you know so much. But no, I think we covered a lot so I'm excited for people to listen to this episode!